that just makes you look sad

 

=^.^=

 

Whether you agree with it or not, it's a fairly moot point. War is a policy decision, no matter who is calling the shots, and when you're the leader of a nation at any level, that makes it political as well. And no, having someone to hold accountable doesn't make war any more pleasant or forgiving for either side. What makes the difference is the chain of command, and the idea that someone is being held accountable for the decisions that get made.

As for the disrepency between armed forces... I am more than willing to admit that if some more powerful agency invaded America today I would take up arms and try to fight them off. It's a legitimate right of a people to fight against being conquered, to try and defend their freedoms, culture and way of life. And yeah, if Obama ordered the Marines to invade Austria tomorrow, I probably would be joined in a chorus of "What the fucks?"

But history is more tangled than that, and the actions of one generation have been proven to affect the next few batches. I love my country, but there have been mistakes made in the past, and all too often someone else has to go in and clean them up a few decades later. Sometimes we can work something out, (like with South America for the most part) sometimes we roll our eyes and go, "What ever dude!" (Yeah, I mean Chavez.) and sometimes the other side is just bonkers (Kim and Addy, for those keeping score. Or, if you'd prefer, Hitler and Mussolini) at which point the only way for evil to prosper is for good folks to sit back and do nothing. But again, there is someone to be held responsible. And we try, for all that we succeed and fail, to stick to what we believe are military targets.

And if you're a smaller force, it just makes strategic sense to sneak around and try not to get caught. Stealth can make an impressive force modifier when used right. That's not what bugs me. It's the random violence, the sheer acts of terrorism. The bombing of the U.S.S. Cole, for all intents and purposes, was a clean act of war. Still terrorism, as it was meant to show "We can hit you any time, any where we want", but they went after a legitimate military target. Car bombs in the market place? Kidnappings and beheadings of civilians? The Twin Towers, the London Tubes, and the Spanish Rails? What was the point? All they got was a more aggressive response. We went from monitoring a no fly zone over one country and considering cruise missile attacks against a few individuals until they did that, and then we went and invaded two seperate countries. The Mumbai Massacre? Jews and Indians, slaughtered not for any military or real political purpose, but because of the accidents of their births. That I object to, and support those who try to prevent it from happening again. Disparity of forces? Your actions are your own. Remember that the next time you choose to throw rocks at armed soldiers and get your ass shot off in response. And don't tell me that you didn't think it was dangerous for them; considering how many sins earn the penalty of stonded to death in the Koran every Islamic should know better than to chuck a rock. Because trust me, if I was Palestinian, knowing full well what the consequences of me attacking Israel would be, then no, I wouldn't fight. It's one thing to try and defend yourself, its another thing to attack a country so far out of your league that the only outcome is a few cuts and broken bones on their side thanks to their warning system, and a few dozen dead or critically injured on your side when they retaliate. A chance I will take for freedom, but continuing a cycle of violence that just hurts me, my friends, my family even more? Why? What does it gain me or them to die violently?

Hmmm, I'll try and wrap it up since this getting long. The War on Terror is not just America's fight; or at least it shouldn't be. The various nations of the world should be more than willing to cooperate with each other on this. (Actually saw an article recently that remarked on this; one of the unmentioned consequences of invading Afghanistan is that it busted up a lot of training camps for groups that had been annoying the Russians and Asians.) As for Obama, strange as this may sound, I think it would have been better if he had been the President of Iran. It's all nice for him to extend the hand of friendship from the lofty position of the President of the United States; half of our graduating high school students probably couldn't find Iran on a map, they really just don't care or see how it affects them. It's much more difficult for the smaller person, honest grievances or no, to simply let things slide. His attitude of "Let's forget the past and move forward" would probably do more good all around coming from their end of the table.

 

I find that our world’s greatest problem is ignorance, I use this word loosely because we all think we know what’s really going on when we don’t. We are all less then pawns in the political game and yet we all bash on each others countries for their past or present struggles and decisions. Having pride in your country is fine...but I bet if I was raised there or you were raised here we would both have completely different outlooks...Why?...Ignorance...(and note that the people who say they are never ignorant are the most ignorant of us all)

The whole world needs to work together as one if were ever going to become something more (I say this knowing it is impossible). Not one person can say they have pride in our world. I find that to be the saddest thing of all.

We are all going to get wiped off of the face of the planet by something we most likely could have prevented if all of our arrogant countries would have just worked together. But instead the almighty dollar, religion, and oil will keep us from doing so.

 

I said it because I am proud to be an American, I will keep on saying this due to many reasons, We as an Americans doing much for those who need us, We helped all who trapped in difficult times, I am not against anyone but we have the power to support around the world we have the strength to do much for other nations than any other on this Gods green earth. I hope and pray that we all Americans get under one God and do our best to help support and stand with those who are on right path. No offense to anyone from any part of the world.

 

you should be proud. or maybe i´ve just misjuged your statement.
as far as suport goes, smaller nations can only do so much. a small nation like mine as troops allready in the ex-joguslavia, afganistan and iraque. we donnot have the manpower or the military means to do more.

but, even being small, we will criticize you when we think you are wrong, but that doesn´t mean we don´t stand by your side. most european nations do.

i think sometimes americans don´t realize the good friends they have in europe.

 

US part in ending of WWII

 

you do make a strong case and your posts make a discussion "richer"

i once saw an american program where this guy did a stand up comedy show for almost one hour !
he said something like "equality of the sexs is not diferent, it´s better, freedom of choise is not diferent, it´s better, etc... (can´t remember the rest but you got the idea), i couldn´t agree with im more. but there must be another way to reach those people cause they think they have a just cause, some think celebrating 9/11 is the right thing to do.

if coke, mcdonalds, mercedes, etc, can publish their way allmost anywhere, why can not many other important messages ?

 

Foeofthelance I've got to admit you really had me going there for awhile. That is until you got right here:

Because when you say that, you also contradict what you said earlier:

That's exactly what the Palestinians have been doing for the past 60 years; fighting against being conquered, to try and defend their freedoms, culture and way of life.

What you are right about is that when you are being oppressed, or to put it in simpler terms just being bullied or pushed around you have two choices; you can either take it (which in my experience it will only get worse) or you can fight back.

Here's the real deal with bullies. You don't have to win the fight. All you have to do is be willing to fight no matter how badly you get beat up in the process. If you're just willing to fight every time the bully comes around he will eventually stop coming around and find someone else to pick on.

That's the same for the Palestinians or any other group or nation that is being oppressed by a stronger nation. Its what you said you would do if the US was invaded.

And you know what? It works. And even though its been 60 years and hundreds of thousands of Palestinian lives, its going to work for them; like sand castles fall to the sea, eventually.

There's always two perspectives to everything, and governments, and chains of command, and policies and procedures don't change that.

 

Stumbler, I figured you'd catch that, but I don't really see it in terms of a contradiction. Let me put it this way; if you, Kimiko, and ShakeZulu broke into my house in the middle of night armed with guns, I'd try to fight you off even though I only have swords at my disposal. I know the terrain better, I know where my mother and brother would be coming from, how well armed they are, and what they are capable of. We might take some casualties, but at least I would consider it fair enough fight to take the chance.

If, however, you parked a tank in my living room and demanded I come out with my hands up... I would do just that. Call it cowardice, call it cynicism, but I honestly don't see how I could prevail against a tank. And me being a martyr isn't worth the lives of my brother, sisters, niece, and mother. If it's me going out in a blaze of glory or them living, I'd rather they live. And that's the light I view the current Palestinian-Israel conflict in. The Palestinian's aren't doing anything to help themselves, or get the world to see them as victims. Oh sure, Israel might get chastised for over reacting, but they aren't being told not to defend themselves at all. What was the last casualty count from the recent hositilities? How much damage was done to Israel for how much damage done to Palestine? Because there is fighting against a belligerent to defend yourself, and then there is getting people killed stupidly for a cause. You can't help anyone once they're dead.

 

should the palestians let them selves be bullyed then?

i saw a documentary on how some people live in the area. even when you try to see a football (soccer), match, there is a diference between being a jew or being an arab. and i am not even talking about getting jobs, best education for your children, acess to health care, religious areas, etc.

how bullyed do they have to be ?

this is an important religious area that have been the target for many centurys by the "white christians", since the time of the cruzades. that is their turf. the establishment of the state of israel is another cruzade.

where lies the line between pacifist opposition and just loosing it and go at them ?

 

No, I don't believe the Palestinians should be bullied; I'm not saying they don't have a right to protect themselves; they just have as much right as the Israelis to protect themselves. What I disagree with is their tactics. Unlike Stumbler, I don't see this as a case of the tide versus the beach, it's closer to tectonic plate movements, and Israel simply has more mass and momentum than the Palestinians do.

Now, I already said that I would simply take it on the chin if I were the Palestinians; I don't believe that there is a viable military solution for them, and things will go a lot easier and a lot faster if they could embarass the hell out of Israel as an aggressive belligerent, instead of randomly spamming rockets every time Iran sends them a new shipment. All it does is make them an annoyance, one that justifies Israeli military action, if not the scope of it. And as I said, from my point of view all it does is get civilians killed when they finally piss Israel off enough to launch a massive counter attack.

On the other hand, if I was to advocate military action, I still wouldn't do what Hamas and fellows is currently doing. Call it arm chair generaling, which it is to the most point, but to me its a waste of resources. Again, look at the damage and casualty ratios from the last engagement. Instead of letting one or two artillery trucks fire at a time and hope they get away, save them in parking garages and military bases. Keep the ammo buried, and save it. When there's enough built up for a strong push, even though its going to lose, unleash hell. Have every truck that can get in range fire in barrage, saturate the Israeli defenses, and try to break one point. Show that if it comes down to a major fight that Palestine will try to hurt Israel as much as possible. Granted, you won't be able to destroy Israel, or even kick them out of the Holy Land. And, admittedly, if you do enough damage the rest of the world might just turn a blind eye when Israel goes "Fuck this shit!" and steams rolls Gaza.

Again, that's conjecture and opinion, and loads of it. And I stand by my belief of fighting if there's a chance, and surviving if there isn't. There's plenty of injustice in the world, and life sucks greatly for a great many people, but you can't make it better for them by getting them killed.

 

You've just backed up a mile from what you initially said but let's forget that and just keep going.

The problem here is you're ignorant of this struggle, how it started, the course its taken and where its at right now.

From the creation of Israel until the present day the Palestinians have made great headway compared to where they started which was chased off their land and ignored by the rest of the world. You and I both might wish they had not resorted to terrorism along the way but they did and eventually got recognized as a people instead of just ignored.

It been Israel that has been the aggressor and oppressor during all this time and the one thing you're right about is they have been a military superpower all along the way with a completely free hand given by the west and a blind eye turned towards Israel's aggression and tactics.

But the struggle and the lose of lives have not been in vain. Along the way they've gotten themselves recognized as a people, forced Israel to with their troops and settlements and have brought world scrutiny to Israel's tactics and this last act of aggression has tarnished Israel more then anything else they have done.

I think the real deal here Foeofthelance is that deep down inside you're pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian and are going to great pains to try and conceal that.

What other tactics are available to the Palestinians?

The problem with this is that what they are doing is working.

Bullshit on two counts Foeofthelance. First the Palestinians have tried to embrace Israel and Israel has steadfastly refused to negoatiate in good faith. Second, aside from being a military super power as far as ground forces and air forces are concerned Israel is also a nuclear power. All the military power in the Middle East would not be able to inflict damage on Israel. And if Israel's last response to rocket attacks that killed three civilians is any indication (which it historically is) you can imagine what they would do if they faced a serious attack.

You're right Hamas and their tactics are a mistake for the Palestinians, but Hamas is exactly what Israel wants which is why they helped fund Hamas and get them situated in Gaza. The reason was simple. The Palestinian Authority had met Israel's demands to be recognized and stop using terrorism so they needed another handy excuse not to negotiate with them.

This is actually quite laughable when you consider that Israel routinely runs preemptive strikes not just against the Palestinians but even against other nations. The one thing you probably underestimate more then Israel's military might is their intelligence gathering and counter spies.

The rest of the world has turned a blind eye to Israel's steam rolling for more then 60 years. Its most unfortunate that it took terrorism to even begin to open the world's eyes but now that they are open Israel is beginning to be seen for what it is and that is costing them in world opinion and will probably cost them in foreign aid.

To many people they would rather die fighting for their rights and freedoms then live like a slave to bullies.

 

Stumbler, I was asked my opinion on what I would do if I was a Palestinian now. I don't need to know what happened fifty years ago to see that Gaza gets the crapped kicked out of it every time Israel sneezes. It's nice for us to sit here and debate the larger picture and the cause and effect of Hamas's tactics and who did what when, and which side gets to currently play the victim and which side gets to play the aggressor. If I was living in the Gaza strip I would do whatever it takes to keep the angry men from dropping bombs on my head to kill my neighbor who's been storing guns in his basement. I don't see it working out to well for me. And how long is it going to take to build enough animosity against Israel to get them stop? How many of my relatives need to die for Hamas's crusade? How many times do I need to have my shop blown up and my children killed, when the Israelis can duck every time we try to retaliate?

If you hand me an RPG to take out a tank, I might take it, especially if you have enough for all the tanks; if you hand me a rock, I say fuck you. Again, that's my opinion; you disagree, that's fine. I don't see either of us changing our minds.

 

First of all Foeofthelance just to keep the record straight you weren't asked about your opinion on the Palestinians and Gaza. You interjected your opinion on what you thought the Palestinians should do after grandly contradicting yourself.

But second, another thing you are overlooking is that while this might be your opinion it is not the opinion of the majority of Palestinians in Gaza who elected Hamas.

And you can't really say with any credibility what you would and would not do if you were a Palestinian in Gaza if you're ignorant of the struggle and its history.

Finally, while you would contend it isn't working or worth it, Hama and Israel are in the process of negotiating a long term cease fire agreement so it actually has worked. Because before Israel has not even been willing to negotiate.

 

First off all this debate will go on and on, who is right or wrong, it's never ending. no matter what your opinion is, the only thing we can do is to sit back and sadly watch these thing happen. if we all had a magic wand then we all could live in a peaceful world, well for those that want it aleast....